We’ve got another acting podcast today! Actor Craig Cackowski joins us on the Box Angeles podcast episode 343. Craig stops by the bungalow and discusses improv post covid, the joy he gets from teaching, what roles he is currently going out for, and more!
“You really are only gonna learn by making horrific mistakes in front of paying audiences.”
— Craig Cackowski
Beats
00:00 – Introduction.
01:30 – Craig slates his name.
02:22 – Improv hangouts.
08:46 – How Craig is handling post improv theatre closures.
17:47 – Day jobs.
20:36 – Joy teaching improv.
23:00 – Mike’s half bits.
24:54 – Would Craig walk away from teaching.
26:53 – 70 episodes of Drunk History.
31:17 – Negotiating rates.
36:30 – Reflecting on Craig’s career thus far.
39:56 – Craig’s type.
43:06 – How does Craig step away.
47:43 – Audition numbers.
49:43 – Taking acting classes.
55:07 – Who took a chance on Craig.
More Craig
– Check Craig’s IMDb.
– Follow Craig on Instagram @ccackowski.
– Listen to Craig’s first episode of Box Angeles, #013.
Transcript
MIKE ELDER (00:00)
Welcome to the Box Angeles podcast with me. I’m your host, Mike Elder. Thank you so much for listening to the show. Whether this is your first time listening or your hundredth time listening, it really means a lot to me. What would also mean a lot to me is if you subscribe to my YouTube channel, where this episode can be found in its full video length. All previous episodes are up there as well.
Video clips, shorts, all that good stuff. A great little community there. Please subscribe. It’d mean a lot to me. youtube.com/boxangeles We’ve got a great episode this week. I’m talking to actor and improviser extraordinaire, Craig Cackowski. You know Craig from shows like Veep, Community, Drunk History, more recently Sex Lives of College Girls, the Pitt.
He was one of my first improv teachers when I moved to LA, like, 12 years ago. He did the podcast, like 10 years ago, one of the first few episodes, back when I was in the old, old apartment, which was fun. But I ran into him recently. I asked him to come back down. He said, absolutely. We had a really fun conversation about improv, his career, where he’s at in life. Post Covid feels, Post Actor Strike feels, how he’s doing without sort of a home improv space, how he’s handling that.
Because he’s been a big improv guy forever, dating back to Chicago. That’s sort of where he lives and breathes, teaching a lot of students like me. And it’s. Anyways, it was a really good conversation. I think you’re going to dig it. And without further ado, I give you–
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (01:30)
Hi. Craig Cackowski, 5 foot 11, Los Angeles.
MIKE ELDER (01:33)
You’re taller than 5 11, aren’t you?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (01:35)
Nope.
MIKE ELDER (01:35)
I would give you 6, 5, 11 and 2 quarters.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (01:39)
You think I could round it up? Right? But I want to be honest, like, I was five eleven and a half for. For so long, and now I think I’m. I’m in my middle age and I’m shrinking a bit. So five’ eleven.
MIKE ELDER (01:50)
That’s hilarious. I feel like I was five’ eleven for a long time, and then I just started to tell myself I’m six, and now I’m just six.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (01:55)
Sure. I mean, that’s the quintessential LA experience is facts that are based on feelings. Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (02:04)
Hey. I mean, that’s a lot of this country at this point.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (02:06)
I feel like, well, yes, unfortunately. Let’s get into that.
MIKE ELDER (02:10)
Should we? Let’s get dark. Craig, you came on this podcast 11 years ago. Do you realize it was that Long ago.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (02:16)
And so we’re celebrating the 11 year anniversary. Momentous episode.
MIKE ELDER (02:21)
I mean, so much has changed since then and so little has changed. Isn’t it interesting?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (02:26)
Totes on both counts. Totally agree.
MIKE ELDER (02:28)
Because I just had Brendan Jennings on who did it 10 years ago.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (02:32)
Okay.
MIKE ELDER (02:32)
And he was like. And we’re still just hanging out waiting for the phone call.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (02:40)
And it’s less of a phone call of like, it’s rarely a phone call.
MIKE ELDER (02:43)
Never a phone call.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (02:44)
It’s a metaphorical phone call, but yeah. It’s more likely an email. Yeah, yeah.
MIKE ELDER (02:51)
No, it’s wild. Like literally, you did it in the first, like 15 episodes. I did. And it was my very first apartment when I moved to la. It’s wild that it was that long ago. You were one of my first improv teachers in la. I don’t know if you know that.
I think my second improv teacher or something like that.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (03:06)
Okay. Who was first?
MIKE ELDER (03:07)
I think it was. Oh, no, it was a woman. Oh, I got it, I got it, I got it. It was Molly Erdman. I was going to say Jill Donnelly, but she was my first ucb.
Molly Erdman was my first.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (03:18)
So at IO she was level one and I was level.
MIKE ELDER (03:20)
I believe so.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (03:21)
That sounds right.
MIKE ELDER (03:22)
Yeah. But it’s just wild to think about. That was so long ago.
And I just. We stumbled into each other at a show and I was telling Brendan this too. Like we were at an improv show. A very small improv show that was. It was so fun and it just like felt like old times.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (03:36)
Weirdly, it was a lot of iO West Energy at that improv show. Yeah. A lot of old friends there. And Yeah. I mean, iO West had the advantage of having the bar, which meant that if there was anybody there, they were all at the bar. They were rarely in the show. Yeah, like there would be like 150 people at the bar and like three people inside watching the show at various times.
But that meant that people. And then when a show was popular of like, you’d get that feeling of like everybody kind of rushing, you know, like, this is a show you need to see. Like, the Thursday night’s lineup was particularly great. It was either Dasariski or Quartet, which I was in, and Dummy with Jason Schatz and Colleen Doyle and Cook county with Brendan and those guys. And the Reckoning it was all groups that had been at some point the best team in Chicago and had all at different points made a pilgrimage out to la. So that was a great lineup. That was a particularly memorable night.
There and then you’d close the place down afterwards. Particularly if it was a good show. You would. You know, any good improv show, it’s ephemeral and you’re most likely not recording it, though we did tape a lot of our shows. But you want to create an oral history right away when you’ve just had a memorable show. So that’s when everyone, including the people who have kids or the people with day jobs who never hang out of, like, they hang out that night. So you can lock in, in your collective memory that show that you just had.
MIKE ELDER (05:11)
Yeah. And that’s kind of what it felt like a couple weeks ago when I saw you. And it was like, we used to have that community that, like, I worked at I.O. so I was there, like, three nights a week. And then I loved going home because I lived alone and I could just unplug from all the people I saw and interacted with. And then we just swung so far the other way where we don’t get that anymore.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (05:29)
Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (05:30)
And to have that last week, a couple weeks ago, where we all chatting for 15, 20 minutes after and, like, having a nice conversation with people seeing faces, it just was hearkened back to a time that we’ve since lost.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (05:41)
I feel like you seem like you’re similar to me then where, like, I do, like, thrive on. On social interaction, but I also need time to decompress.
MIKE ELDER (05:51)
Thousand percent.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (05:51)
Also, like, I need to alternate between those two extremes. Absolutely. Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (05:55)
Because I get energy from people. Right. Where there’s a classic extrovert. I get energized when I’m around people and I get up, but I still need to lower that a little bit. I can’t always be.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (06:05)
I can’t be mad. Yeah. And people who are on all the time are exhausting.
MIKE ELDER (06:10)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (06:11)
So, like. And those are the kind of people that I need to decompress from.
MIKE ELDER (06:15)
Yes.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (06:15)
I think, though, I have many people that I love dearly that are like that. But. Yeah. So I can relate.
MIKE ELDER (06:21)
That was the thing with COVID was I told everyone I was like, I love living alone until Covid, because then suddenly I was just like, what do I do? Where do I get my energy?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (06:30)
Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (06:31)
Anyways, I don’t know if improv is coming back now at all, but it was nice for them. We had that one night, romantic night in noh.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (06:41)
Yeah. And coming back to what?
Also of, like, it’s. I mean, it’s a constantly evolving both art form and business situation.
MIKE ELDER (06:51)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (06:52)
So, I mean. Yeah. I mean, IO closed in 2018.
Pre pandemic, Second City that I also worked at closed during the pandemic in Hollywood, you know, or they were kind of like. It seemed like nothing was going to happen with it. And then. And then eventually, like two years after, like, anything had been going on, they were like, yeah, we’re close, we’re not open up again. And then like, both iO, Second City, UCB, like in the years before the pandemic were kind of like having just like a reckoning in terms of, you know, mismanaging the business and, you know, unsafe environment for some people and not having, you know, a diverse enough group of performers or not protecting the people who were diverse, you know, so, like, it felt like improv. And this was not just la, this was Chicago, New York, to kind of like hit critical mass at the same time. And all three of those cities were kind of like, outgrown its mom and pop origin.
MIKE ELDER (07:51)
That’s why I was just gonna say.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (07:52)
It felt like a corporate.
MIKE ELDER (07:53)
It couldn’t scale. There was no model they could find that could scale. And that’s where they got in trouble. And it had this natural, like, let the air out, reset.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (08:02)
Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (08:02)
And just like, pop the balloon a little bit.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (08:05)
And then that kind of like, then segued into the pandemic, which only exacerbated kind of all those problems. But then you.
Yeah, you lose community. And improv is just like, the most, you know, I mean, standups can just, like, be in their own little world and, like, you know, only, like, see people for the 10 minutes of their set, you know, if they want. But improv is all based on finding inspiration and joy and being in a room with other people, you know, your fellow performers and the audience. You establish a relationship with them, too. So. Yeah, I mean, I think it was particularly hard on the art form, artistically and business wise.
MIKE ELDER (08:46)
Yeah. Well, how are you doing?
Like, because I. You are so entrenched in that world. Everybody, you’re like, you and Will Hines are the same person to me. Like, you guys are just entrenched in that world. Everyone had you as a teacher at some point. Everyone respects, adores, and loves you. Like, how do you handle something like that where there is that reckoning?
And you’re like, you. You, I think, have survived largely off of teaching improv for so long. You’re going to teach an improv class after this. How do you. How do you. How are you doing with all of this?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (09:14)
I mean, can we make this the whole podcast, please? I’ve got probably an hour’s worth. Let’s do it to say about it. But yeah, I mean, it’s interesting you bring up Will because, you know, basic for years of, like, we were basically the same guy at UCB and IO respectively, you know, that we didn’t know each other that well. Our paths, you know, didn’t. Didn’t cross. You know, we didn’t ever play together anything, but we just kind of knew who each other were.
And like, at one point, like, we ran into each other at an audition. We were up for the same thing, of course, you know, at 200 South La Brea, I think, like, where else would it be? Probably Ross. Lacy. Love Ross.
MIKE ELDER (09:57)
Get me in, Ross. Come on.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (10:00)
And I remember Will coming up to me like, hey, you know me and I know you’re, like, we should have lunch. And we did. And so, like, we kind of had like a nice friendship for a while. He started pushing me to get a book out, which I still have not done. You know, it’s very much on the back burner. But a couple years ago, my wife Carla and I, we have our improv duo, Orange Tuxedo. We went to Das Improv Fest in Berlin. And the other American headliner was the Bozos with Will and Jim woods and Sarah Claspel, and they all own the Ouijis, world’s greatest improv school together.
And then I kind of like, because I had been a little lost, like, without iO in Second City. I taught for a while at the Westside in San Monica where my wife was the artistic director for a while. But at the time I still lived in the east side and like, it was, you know, getting to Santa Monica to teach a seven o’ clock class.
MIKE ELDER (10:55)
Yeah, I used to intern there. So I get it.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (10:57)
Oh, it’s a living hell.
MIKE ELDER (10:59)
I can’t believe I did it. I interned there for like 18 months. And I, in retrospect, I’m like, I can’t believe I did.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (11:03)
Yeah. And they have a great community there.
MIKE ELDER (11:05)
They’re all wonderful theater.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (11:06)
Chris Gorbos runs the place. Great guy. You know, the student base was a little, like, it was more normies than normies.
MIKE ELDER (11:17)
It was professionals. Yeah, Just like improv. I’ll try this.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (11:20)
Yeah. West Siders who, like, they have kind of stumbled into it. So, like, you find some fantastic people there. But, like, it’s not necessarily that I want all of my class to be people who’ve, like, I want to. I want improv to be my thing and I want, you know, I want to be a professional actor, you know, But I am having done it in LA for about 20 years. I am used to that vibe a little more. So, like, it’s just a different teaching style you have to do to kind of communicate to the normies, you know.
So Westside was a nice place to teach for a bit, but then when the pandemic happened, like, did some stuff over Zoom for a while. But yeah, I was kind of itinerant. Didn’t really have a home. I mean, I had a home, but not a metaphorical home to teach him from. And so, like just striking the conversation with Jim and Will and Sarah in Berlin, they were like, hey, I mean, you can come teach at our place. We’d love to have you. And. And so I’ve been there ever since.
And I have a monthly class on Mondays. Like 16 people.
It’s totally full. Sells out like, as soon as they put it up. Like, the student base is fantastic. People who are motivated and talented and just really love the art form. They’re doing it for love of the game. But like, also they’re people who take comedy seriously and they. Most of them have acting and writing aspirations, of course.
MIKE ELDER (12:44)
Yeah. So it’s fair to say for a little while there, you were a little lost, a little puppy, maybe A little bit.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (12:50)
Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (12:51)
Is what I took out of that secretly.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (12:55)
I mean, I owe 2018 of like, that was a huge blow. Like, I wasn’t shocked. Like, once I found out like, that it was closing, I’m like, okay, that makes sense of like, we’ve been heading in that direction. But still, like, I, Like, I was teaching to, I think level fives at the time, or maybe level four. Like, so they were a couple levels from graduating, you know, and I taught my Monday class, got the news on Tuesday that it was closing down and.
And we just. I don’t know if you remember from my class, like the last week, we would usually, like, everyone get up. Like I talk to each person individually.
MIKE ELDER (13:31)
Yeah, I love that, actually. Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (13:33)
Ye, like, what are my.
MIKE ELDER (13:34)
Told me. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (13:36)
What are my strengths? What did I say about you?
MIKE ELDER (13:38)
I don’t remember. I was going to guess. I feel like you told me, like, you are a ball of energy, but we got to figure out how to harness it or something like that is what I’m thinking.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (13:47)
Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, everyone, every improviser is a mutant, you know. Yeah, it’s the old Professor X analogy. Like, I’m not giving you mutant powers that you don’t already possess. You know, it’s just finding and training and honing Your powers, like Cyclops. Cyclops has that eye shield that prevents him from, like, shooting his eye lasers at everyone.
But that’s what young improvisers are like. Yeah, they’re just killing people with their eye lasers constantly. So, like, you have to kind of, like, train.
And everyone’s different. Their mutant power is different. So. So you get compliments for everyone and then, like, things they can work on and then, like, a personalized exercise for them. So, like, just left that Monday, like, on top of the world. Like, you know, I. You know, I structure the class specifically to, like, send people out on that note. And then got the news on Tuesday that was closing, and then Wednesday came in to teach the other class, and, like, I cried, like, breaking the news to them of, like, they had not heard it yet.
Like, it was. It was really tough. And then we had to do that same class, you know, which still, like, worked great. But, like, everyone’s like, we.
We can’t finish. Like, there’s. Yeah, like, what do we do? You know?
So that really hurt. And then so I did some stuff at Second City for a while and Westside and then Pandemic. We drove cross country both in 2020 and 2021, to spend, like, multiple months in North Carolina, where my parents live.
MIKE ELDER (15:14)
Oh, that helps.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (15:15)
So, like, in 2020, they had a house on the lake that is their retirement house that had. They had not moved into yet. So me and Carla and two dogs had that for about four months. Like, it was a great place to be, you know? And in the back of my mind, I’m like, well, because I was still auditioning for stuff, there wasn’t a lot coming in, of course, but of, like, I’m sending in tapes. I’m like, well, if I book something, you know, I’ll fly back. We never had to worry about that.
MIKE ELDER (15:44)
Well, I would imagine for you, even to the point of, like, you saying you were an extrovert as well, or I glean that it’s like, you correct me if I’m wrong, but I feel like your identity is improv and to not only have IO clothes, but the world shut down and then you’re not seeing any classes on any regular cadence. Has to be just a complete. I mean, we’re all going through it. You’re not a special person. You are special, but you know what I mean? Like, that just feels like it would really kick you in the balls to it. It used to be Sunset, then closes, Then it feels like the world is.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (16:14)
Like, you know, it kicked me in the ball. So that’s a good way to put it. Yeah. I mean, you’re not wrong that it’s my identity of like, I think of it as like, that’s my life’s work.
MIKE ELDER (16:23)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (16:24)
You know, like I have this art form that I’m trained in that I’m proficient in. I’m always trying to get better at it myself. I have knowledge that I can impart to other people. You know, people seek me out. I love collaborating with people and seeing people grow. Like, so. Yeah, I mean, like.
And then I also have this other thing that I do where I try to get parts on TV shows and movies for money. You know, those are two like separate things of like they’re in the general umbrella of acting, performing, being an artist, but of like I really try to separate those two things.
MIKE ELDER (17:05)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (17:05)
You know, my life’s work, the art that I do, which I am sometimes compensated for, you know, and I’m. And I’m compensated pretty well, you know, by the standards of that world, you know, And I have this other commerce thing that I do that I also love, you know, like my, my favorite thing is pretending to be other people. Or my second favorite thing is pretending to be other people. My favorite thing is pretending to be other people for money.
MIKE ELDER (17:32)
I would say like ice cream or something.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (17:34)
Also love ice cream. That’s then probably like improv, I guess. My wife and my dog, like that’s.
MIKE ELDER (17:40)
Yeah. Your wife’s fourth, I think.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (17:41)
Yeah. Ice cream stop. Ten. Definitely.
MIKE ELDER (17:46)
Yeah. It just feels like, keep me honest. Like, have you ever had a day job in LA other than teaching improv? Like that’s your bread and butter out here. That’s how you make a living.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (17:55)
Right. I never worked 9 to 5.
My last day job was about 30 years ago, so in Chicago. My first few years there, I attended bar and waited table. Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (18:07)
So like that not only is your identity, it’s.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (18:10)
I have no skills.
MIKE ELDER (18:11)
Well, you have a very particular set of skills.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (18:17)
Very particular set of skills. Very limited, but very particular.
MIKE ELDER (18:21)
But that’s wild that even. Wow. That’s wild. Even, like during all of this that we just talked about where the world was collapsing and improv was popping, that you still didn’t have to do anything. I guess thinking about that, that’s pretty cool.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (18:33)
I mean, we had the place to stay, I guess we were still paying rent in la, but we were in a rent controlled place in Atwater for years, you know, which was nice. But. Yeah. And then like you’ve got residuals coming in, you know, as a, as an actor who’s. Who’s worked, you know, a fair amount of, like, you have that, you know, but that’s just like, couch cushion money.
MIKE ELDER (18:56)
Sure. Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (18:57)
Hey, 20 bucks.
MIKE ELDER (18:58)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (18:59)
So, like, you. You got something coming in, but. Yeah, I mean, it was. It was.
MIKE ELDER (19:03)
Well, it’s like, I just talked to Brendan, and Brendan was like, when it does get to the end, there’s always something that pops up and, like, saves him. And it sounds like maybe that’s similar to you.
Like, World’s best. What’s World’s Greatest Improv?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (19:16)
World’s Greatest Improv School, maybe.
MIKE ELDER (19:18)
Right when you needed it. Yeah, sure. So it seems like for 30 years, that’s just. That’s. That’s remarkable.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (19:24)
Jump in the net will appear. I mean, that’s totally. That’s what it always is.
MIKE ELDER (19:27)
Oh, my God. So that you don’t know how much that hits home. So, like, for the last nine and a half years, I’ve worked a day job at nine to five.
It’s remote work. I work from home. It’s not that hard, but it’s been insanely stressful the last, like, nine months. And I was like, I’m turning 40 this year. I was like, you know what? I’m gonna walk. I’m gonna jump.
I’m gonna see what happens. I’m gonna try to just be creative for. I’m gonna take a little creative leave. My last day’s next week, next Tuesday. And, like, everyone’s been so supportive, but I’m, like, kind of nervous about turning that faucet off to see. Cause I’ve just gotten so used to having that backup. So I’m.
So when you said when you jump, the net catches you, I feel that I really do right now. Cause I’m like, let’s find milestone birthdays.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (20:12)
Are always daunting too. Like, it’s just like our zero getting reset. But. Yeah, but believe me, of, like, having gone through 30, 40, and 50, like, those are each, like, incredibly pivotal and stressful times. And then, like, the actual birthday happens, and you’re like, oh, it’s just another day. I’m still the same guy. I’m just another day of, like, it feels good, you know?
MIKE ELDER (20:34)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (20:35)
Good to, like, reach that milestone.
MIKE ELDER (20:36)
Well, you enjoy teaching improv. You get joy out of improv, right?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (20:40)
I do, yeah. Yeah. And I think people also can tell those people that have been on autopilot a little bit, kind of going through the motions, like. And, you know, I’ve had my moments of burnout also. Like, there was a while At IO where they were changing the order of the levels.
So of like what? You know, maybe I was level four and they made my new class level three or something.
But I was teaching the same thing. They just shuffled up. Which meant I was teaching three level fours and two and three level threes because all at the same time. And I definitely got burnt out that term because like I’m saying the same stuff six times a week.
MIKE ELDER (21:18)
Right? Yeah, that’s better.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (21:19)
And because I follow like a pretty strict lesson plan. So I would constantly have deja vu of like, have you guys heard this before? Because I’m hearing it echoing in my head like so. But those have been few and far between those moments of burnout. And I think, you know, I always have the same information available. Like I’m always the same guy and I’ve got all this, you know, experience and know how. But of like, not every class is the same.
So like the difference is them of like the more they want out of it, the more I can give them. And so it’s always a, you know, a two way street.
MIKE ELDER (21:54)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (21:55)
With teaching a class. And so that’s why it’s been so great to have like really motivated and excited for people. Because that keeps me motivated. Yeah, absolutely.
MIKE ELDER (22:03)
Yeah. See, that’s where I’m at with my job. It’s like I’m so burnt out and I’m like, I don’t want to die feeling this way.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (22:09)
No.
MIKE ELDER (22:09)
I want to try to do something that brings me joy. Even if I was like, I’ve like thought I’ve like hypothesized what I can do. And I’m like, I would love to just go do background work for a month. Like that sounds great to me to be around that world or whatever. It just feels like something that I’m not just going to bed anxious and waking up stressed because it just sucks the life out of you. So if you can find something like improv where it brings you joy, great.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (22:32)
I mean being on set in any capacity is very useful, you know.
MIKE ELDER (22:37)
I agree.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (22:37)
And I think background work is a great way to just kind of like learn how everything works. And you know, not that it’s all about networking or whatever, but you never know who you might meet. Like, I mean, LA is just a fascinating town.
Yeah, it is. The people are fascinating and bizarre and wonderful and you know, and you just see the whole broad range of that.
MIKE ELDER (23:00)
Wait, can I run a bit by you? I want to do. I’ve been thinking about a lot of stuff in my retirement. I Want to do my creative leave. Would this be funny to you if I went on like a corner of a Franklin in Vermont or Vermont and Los Fleece Boulevard and I had a sign that said, out of work actor, let me audition for your TV film? And I’m just like handing out headshots, walking between cars. Is that a funny bit or.
No, to your point about you never know who’s around. Like, J.J. abrams could be driving up and be like, so skin off his back to let me audition for Star Trek. You know what I mean?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (23:33)
I mean, that’s kind of a half bit, right? Because it’s like, you know, it’s also partially of like, hey, this could be something, right? You know, like, I mean, I guess.
MIKE ELDER (23:42)
I’m obviously gonna film it and put it on Tick tock.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (23:44)
Yeah, yeah. The best bits have a grain of truth, right? I mean, so much of being in this town is just putting yourself out there.
MIKE ELDER (23:51)
That’s what I’m saying.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (23:53)
Yes.
MIKE ELDER (23:53)
Yeah, it’s. It’s like the dude. What was the dude in the. He was on White Lotus Season 1. Remember during the pandemic, he was doing an audition and you’re like, shit on him. Is set up. And then he released that video.
And I’m like, yeah, I just like little things like that.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (24:11)
I remember that vividly. And now he’s in everything.
MIKE ELDER (24:14)
I know.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (24:15)
Yeah. And he’s also great.
Like, I wish I knew his name off the top of my head, but of like, yeah, I see that guy in a lot of stuff and like, yeah, they were making fun of his shitty apartment. He’s like, give me a job and I won’t have a shitty apartment anymore.
MIKE ELDER (24:28)
Now I’m remembering the notes you gave me. You’re like, Mike, you have all half bits and you need to work hard. I think that’s funny.
One of my. Everyone I’ve ran that by thinks it’s funny, but one friend was like, it sounds desperate and you look bad. And I’m like, I don’t think that’s. Actors can’t get more desperate.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (24:44)
I mean, if you’re also like live streaming it or just like taping it to put like out there. Of like, then you’re. You’re in on the bitch.
MIKE ELDER (24:51)
Yeah. Self aware enough.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (24:52)
Be self aware with it.
MIKE ELDER (24:54)
Can I ask you something? So if you were to like, get a series regular role right now. Now back to the joy of improv, would you quit teaching improv or would you keep doing it to a degree while you were working? As.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (25:05)
However I could.
MIKE ELDER (25:06)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (25:06)
And when When I have, like, when I was in Chicago doing Second City, like six nights a week, like the Main Stage, you would work Tuesday through Sunday, eight shows, two shows Friday, two shows Saturday. You’d be rehearsing during the day. When you were writing a show, you’d have five improv sets a week. I would go do the show at IO on the Mondays, which is my day off, the Armand show, and that I would teach on Sundays before, like, going. So, like, even then I thought you would. It was.
It was just part of my weekly routine. And then even when I was doing drunk history, like, I would have to. I couldn’t teach, like, weekdays at 7, you know, I think I would have a weekend class.
MIKE ELDER (25:50)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (25:50)
On those drunk history months, you know, because they. You would always be held up in like, Santa Clarita at like 6 o’ clock, and it’s like, there’s no way I’m getting at seven of like. I tried it for a bit, but yeah, I always try to keep one class going if I can, even if I’m working pretty steadily.
MIKE ELDER (26:07)
I love that. Cause I think a lot of people will be like, no, I’ve graduated. But to me, you strike me as the guy that just loves you, love doing it. And so that’s really cool to hear you say that.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (26:18)
So many of my Chicago friends who are still in Chicago, when, like, around the time me and a lot of other people were leaving to la, you would hear a lot of, like, LA is where people go or where people do improv so they don’t have to do improv anymore. You know, you’re hoping that, first of all, nobody’s gonna see you in a show. Nobody’s gonna discover you of, like, if you’re not doing it for the joy of it, there’s no purpose in doing it. And it’s also just not true at all of, like, I’ve met thousands and thousands of people out here who are doing it for the joy, just as they did in Chicago.
MIKE ELDER (26:51)
Yeah. Like Will Hines.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (26:52)
Yes.
MIKE ELDER (26:53)
You brought up drunk history. And I wanted to ask a question about drunk. Also. I love that 25 minutes have just gone by already. And, like, these are my favorite conversations, Craig, when, like, 25 minutes is gone before you even, like, blink an eye. But you brought up drunk.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (27:05)
You.
MIKE ELDER (27:05)
I’m sure you know this. You were on 70 episodes of Drunk History.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (27:08)
That sounds right.
MIKE ELDER (27:08)
Which is like second or third to Derek Waters, who did all 72 or whatever.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (27:13)
Yeah, but how did he get so many?
MIKE ELDER (27:15)
Feel free to say as much as you want to Say about this, but this was over six years, right? Like, were you. You were technically a series regular on that, or were you a recurrent? What was technically your title?
And my question. This is going to be about money. Was that, like, juicy by the end? Were you doing okay on that? Or was. Because it was cable, it was like.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (27:35)
It was Comedy Central. I would not describe it as juicy.
MIKE ELDER (27:38)
Okay.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (27:38)
It was not juicy in any way.
MIKE ELDER (27:41)
It was a dried fruit, though.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (27:43)
Like, yeah, there was a raise every year. And, like, by the last year, it was pretty good, I would say. But. And I don’t know. I don’t think I was ever billed as a series regular. Well, like, technically, me and all the other people who were in every episode were considered ensemble, but I don’t even know.
MIKE ELDER (28:01)
Oh, interesting.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (28:02)
If that’s a. That’s a SAG category.
MIKE ELDER (28:05)
So you were doing 12 year when you got it. You knew it was gonna be like, you were gonna be in every episode. Or was it one of those things where you’re like, we’ll put you in as much as we can?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (28:14)
No, that’s. That’s what we were hired for. And that first season, like, it was so low budget, and, like, we did a lot of, like, glorified background stuff because it was so, like, yeah, they needed warm bodies up there. So I think there was always about eight people in the ensemble. And I think it was eight episodes the first season. And so, like, I would probably play, like, even within one story, like, change costumes, like, three times a day to, like, just be a soldier in the background and. And stuff like that.
So it was long days, you know, by the end, like, we would only have, like, the speaking part that we. And if there wasn’t anything for us, we didn’t have to show up that day and stuff like that. But I remember, like, going back for the last season that we did Drunk History, I think we had, like, a crew of, like, 120 a day. Oh, it was a big production.
MIKE ELDER (29:07)
Well, if you get into six, seven seasons. Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (29:10)
And we’re doing more and more, like, epic stories, and we have great cinematographers. Like, the costume team is fantastic. Like, just everybody who worked on that, like, got the maximum value out of, you know, what Comedy Central could.
MIKE ELDER (29:25)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (29:26)
Could pay for. It really looked great. And then I went back to do the Veep finale the same week that I was shooting the Drunk History season six. And just being on set for, like, two hours on an HBO show, you’re like, oh, yeah, this is real money. You can tell just from craft service. You know, like, craft service just tells you right away of like, okay, yeah, lobster claws. Sure, yeah.
MIKE ELDER (29:49)
They got the Erewhon desserts.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (29:52)
Yeah, absolutely. Like, I. I was proud of where Drunk History had gone to in six seasons, but of, like, still, like, you could see it lagging behind other things.
MIKE ELDER (30:01)
So. Okay, I.
I want to ask a little bit more about this. So, like, the last season, Drunk History is like probably 10 episodes.
How long is that? Like two months maybe you’re shooting two and a half.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (30:12)
If one episode would typically be three stories we did, occasionally there’d be longer stories or there was like the Hamilton episode that was just Lin Manuel telling the whole Hamilton versus Bird thing. So we did that a full half hour of just that. But typically three different drunks, three different stories, and then each story is a day. A day of shooting.
MIKE ELDER (30:32)
Oh, wow, that’s true.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (30:33)
We had 12 episodes, 36 stories. That’d be about 36 days of shooting. So what is that?
About seven weeks? And we would have weeks off. So.
MIKE ELDER (30:45)
So then when you are up for that season, obviously it’s a yes. But, like, is your. Are you privy to your agent negotiating anything there? And is it a lump sum payment then, or is it still like a weekly rate or whatever?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (30:59)
I feel like it changed.
MIKE ELDER (31:03)
That was like seven questions.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (31:04)
Sorry. Yeah, yeah, it would be a weekly. No, it would be a. Per episode.
You get paid per episode. So it would be. And. Which would be like three days of work per episode.
MIKE ELDER (31:16)
Got it.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (31:17)
Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (31:17)
And are you privy to your. Is your agent giving you any feedback about the negotiation or is he.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (31:23)
I don’t think there was much negotiation for Drunk History, you know, because we, like, it was favored nations. We were all the same.
MIKE ELDER (31:29)
Okay.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (31:30)
Like, so I think. And I’m never the person who, like, is going to push for more. So I think we had a couple guys dropped out after season one because they didn’t like the money. And then I think there was some squeaky wheel stuff from some of my fellow castmates after season three. And then we all got a nice bump after that. But of like, I’m never the person to initiate that. Of like, I’m always.
I’m just happy to be working.
MIKE ELDER (31:58)
It was your number one favorite thing to do. Stuff paid, do funny stuff, getting paid.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (32:03)
But it doesn’t have to be that much. Anything more than zero is good.
MIKE ELDER (32:07)
I just asked because I’m nowhere near that. And like, literally, this is true story. So, like, I did a Ring Non Union commercial like a year and a half ago or something. Right. And Ring’s a billion dollar company. And the buyout was like a thousand bucks. It was so infuriating.
And the fucking YouTube video of it has 10 million views. And they’re like, they want to use it for six more months.
We’ll pay you $400. And I told my agent, I’m literally like, I don’t need $400. You don’t need 10% of that. Let’s just ask for 10 grand and see what they agent didn’t do it. But we ended up getting like 10, 1200 or like a thousand or like 1200. But it’s like, I wonder how many people just turn over and I’m like, at that level, how much can you negotiate? Like how much buying power do you have?
I don’t know.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (32:52)
For non union. Like, it’s insulting.
MIKE ELDER (32:54)
It’s so frustrating.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (32:55)
Yeah. My first VO gig in Chicago was for the Navy Pier IMAX theater with like 3D. Like glasses. Like I did the announcement to tell people how they could put on their 3D glasses of like, please take out your glasses, take a look at the screen.
Does it appear in 3D? You know, and a 300 bucks.
That was it. I got paid 300 bucks.
MIKE ELDER (33:24)
That’s not bad for 15 years ago.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (33:26)
Well, this was, I don’t know, 30 years ago.
MIKE ELDER (33:29)
Even better. What’s depressing about that though is Christian Bale does that now at scale, probably. Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (33:38)
But they played it, you know, 20 times a day for like years and years. Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (33:44)
Oh yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (33:44)
I never saw another dollar. That’s wild. So like that’s weird when you have stuff that you know that’s just like out there, at least like drunk history. The residues are not a lot, but of like when you did 70, you know, like, hey, if you get 70 ten dollar checks all at once of like, that’s not nothing.
MIKE ELDER (34:02)
Oh, interesting. That’s about what it is right now.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (34:04)
They, they usually all just come in like one. Well, no, it’s sometime but like. Yeah, I mean, but there’ll be times where like you get 70 $10 checks.
MIKE ELDER (34:13)
That’s amazing. And there’s literally 70 of them. They do it per episode. Yeah, that’s infuriated.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (34:20)
Each episode is a different, different residual.
MIKE ELDER (34:22)
Yeah, that’s kind of infuriating because you think they clump it into the show because those checks are costing all of us a lot of money. Some to some degree.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (34:29)
Well, this is all direct deposit, Mike. I’m not saying individually if that’s, if that’s what you’re worried about.
MIKE ELDER (34:35)
Yeah, that’s interesting. Like, I like the idea of favorite. For those that don’t know favorite nations. Mean everyone gets paid the same. They agreed to that at the front. So then it helps group negotiate.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (34:46)
Yes.
MIKE ELDER (34:46)
That’s really. Yeah, that’s really interesting.
I like that. Wow, that’s wild.
Did you, in retrospect, are you like, Damn, I did 70 episodes of a TV show that. That’s like, if I got a large chunk.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (34:58)
If you had asked me to guess, I wouldn’t be able. I wouldn’t have said that high. I would say more like 50, I think. But like, and I might be thinking of like the ones that I actually appeared, you know, because I would have. There would be some stories that, that were not right for me, you know. But you know, we were always trying to tell stories of like just little known people from history, you know, particularly like people of color and queer people, you know, so there was always a racist, sexist or homophobic white guy, which, which was me, you know, But I played, you know, I played Nazis.
I played, you know, D.W. griffith.
MIKE ELDER (35:41)
Like that’s like so fun and it’s so perfect for you, which I love.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (35:45)
Thank you.
MIKE ELDER (35:46)
Well, no, I just mean like I was just doing a bunch of characters in a week is so fun. Like that’s just so, so perfect.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (35:53)
Perfect for the worst people in history. Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (35:56)
Well, it’s good to exercise some demons, you know.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (35:59)
I got to also do Joseph Stalin on History of the World Part two. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
MIKE ELDER (36:03)
Which is like a perfect whatever side piece to drunk history that. That. Did they do three of those or did they. They did three parts of that.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (36:14)
I think the TV show was called History of the World.
MIKE ELDER (36:17)
Oh, they did one and then they did the second one.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (36:19)
Yeah. The Melbourne’s movie is part one, right? Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (36:21)
Okay.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (36:22)
And then of like in the credit, this came out in like 1981 and the credits just like coming soon. History of The World Part 2.
MIKE ELDER (36:29)
Yeah. When you look back, okay, so like thinking pause.
70 episodes of that. You’ve been on a bunch of Veep. You’ve been on all these shows, these great shows, right? Community. Like what. When you look back on your career at this stage, what is your vibe? How do you feel?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (36:47)
I mean, I’m always thankful to get any work, you know, I’m thankful that people continue to discover stuff that’s out there. Just in the streaming world of. You never know when people are gonna find something. I had one of my close friends from high school text me the other day, like I saw you on Forever and you remember what forever was, it was like, it was a one season Amazon prime show with Maya Rudolph and Fred Armisen. And I was in one episode that was like a spinoff episode with Jason Mitchell and Hong Chao that revolved around them. They were the leads for one episode and that Fred and Maya weren’t even in it. And so I just had a bit part in that.
But of like, it’s like eight episodes. Like nobody. The show had no cultural impact and it was like a very well done show. But of like, it just didn’t, you know, cross over. But just like, to hear from an old friend. Of like, hey, I saw you. You know, like, my niece texted me that she saw me on Workaholics where I’m naked.
MIKE ELDER (37:49)
That’s hilarious.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (37:50)
Like, she’s. She was watching it with her friends in college and then she’s like, I think that’s my uncle. Like, so I think she was more, like grossed out than impressed.
But, like, yeah. So, yeah, I mean, it’s cool to have all this stuff out there that people keep discovering. Community is definitely something that has, like, such a strong fan base, you know, So I hope that movie gets done at some point. Like, nobody’s approached me about it. I would love to be in it, even if just for a day. You know, I imagine there’ll be something for Officer Cackowski to do.
MIKE ELDER (38:23)
I would hope so.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (38:23)
Yeah. There’s got to be at least one crime.
MIKE ELDER (38:25)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (38:25)
That gets committed at some point during the movie.
MIKE ELDER (38:27)
But if you, like. And this is going to get dark, I apologize. But if you, like, never worked again, would you be content with your career?
Would you be. Would or do you feel like you still have a lot to give?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (38:39)
I have a lot to give.
MIKE ELDER (38:40)
Well, of course. Ross, Lacy, where are you at?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (38:43)
Please give me at least one more job. Yeah, well, it’s just like, it’s.
MIKE ELDER (38:48)
Everything’s slowing down. And I talked to, like, Frank Caeti about this, and he said the most heartbreaking thing. He was like, I look back and I’m like, am I a never was or am I a has been? And I was like, that’s crazy because from where I’m sitting, I’ve been here 15 years. I don’t have a single, you know, anything.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (39:04)
Like, it’s all so relative. I mean, early on in my relationship with my wife, like, I remember just bitching about something, you know, something I didn’t get or something that I didn’t get to go out for. And she was like, craig, you audition more than anybody that I know.
MIKE ELDER (39:20)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (39:20)
And. But Then you’re like, no, but it’s not about the audition of like you gotta close the deal and everything. And then you know that like that Matt Damon is like, oh really? Pitt got that? You know. Well for sure it doesn’t matter what level you’re at, it never ends of like you’re always kind of looking up to that next category. So certainly of like I can’t complain about any of the things, things that I’ve had, but I’d like to work a lot more and no, I wouldn’t be satisfied if, if that’s all it was.
I feel like that I have a lot more that I’d like to do, you know. And I’ve kind of like been booking more dramatic stuff lately, which is good, you know, I’m kind of entering my pathetic middle aged man territory, which like.
MIKE ELDER (40:09)
It’S gonna be self aware.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (40:11)
Yeah. I mean, well, is it like the Leslie Kahn classes where people like the sitcom classes where people have to figure out what your thing is of how do people see you?
MIKE ELDER (40:23)
Yes, probably.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (40:24)
I never did those classes but all my friends did and they booked sitcoms way more than I did John Rosenfeld.
MIKE ELDER (40:30)
And he was like a prodigy of her. And the first class we did, everyone said what they see in you. And I loved it. I actually thought it was eye opening. A lot of people were devastated and I was like, why? We can’t really change it. Yeah, I mean it’s good to be aware of it.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (40:45)
That’s how the business works and know how to market yourself, what kind of headshots to get, you know, how to dress, you know, what sort of things you should be looking for to go out for. Just knowing of just like I’m the quirky best friend or whatever it is. I personally hate, hate that. Like that’s why I never did those classes because I don’t want to be pigeonholed in that way. But of like I have like 100% respect for the people who do and I. It’s a much smarter way to handle your career and your self marketing. I think I’m just more of the mindset of just like I’m an actor, I can do anything.
You know when I know that that’s not true, you know, when you’re on camera, it’s so much of like how you present and how others see you. So the way I’m presenting now is a sad, pathetic, overweight, middle aged man.
MIKE ELDER (41:38)
That’s crazy to me.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (41:39)
So that’s what I like that, that’s what I’m going For.
MIKE ELDER (41:44)
That’S so funny to me because when you came or when I saw you a couple weeks ago, I was like, craig, doesn’t age. Like, you seem like you, you’re glowing as much as you did when I first.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (41:53)
Thanks, man.
MIKE ELDER (41:54)
Well, I have no control over it.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (41:58)
Yeah, I mean, the hair is a lot grayer. Like, that’s for sure. But of like, I mean, when you don’t have a day job and when, like when you spend most of your life just like laughing, like, and just being in the moment and being open to discovery of like all that helps keep me young, certainly.
MIKE ELDER (42:19)
Oh, I love that. That’s a good clip for this. I’m literally reading a mindfulness book and it just talks about how, like how smiling like you keep doing is just like, it relaxes your face and it stretches your muscles and it feels good. There’s like benefits to just smiling. So it totally is true what you just said. I mean, it’s written by like a monk. So I don’t know if there’s any science behind it, but this is not.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (42:43)
The Rick Rubin book. But everybody more of a scientist.
MIKE ELDER (42:47)
Rick Rubin.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (42:48)
But it feels like everyone’s reading that Rick Rubin book.
MIKE ELDER (42:50)
Oh yeah, it wasn’t bad. It was very, yeah, kind of woof woo woo woofy woof woo woo woo.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (42:56)
Woo woofy woofy Frou frou frou frou.
MIKE ELDER (43:01)
Hipster hippie. Sure. Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (43:04)
But people need that.
MIKE ELDER (43:06)
What do you do, Craig? What do you do to like, step away from this business to this point? Like everything we just said, like, you’re judged constantly. You’re dealing with people that are fragile in class, I would imagine at times and have aspirations that are often blown out and like. So how do you step away? Do you have anything that like you do to calm yourself or get away from everything and just focus on you for a little bit bit?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (43:28)
I do really. I like to travel. I wish I could do it more often. Like, like, if I had the budget to do so, I’d go to Hawaii twice a year, you know, like, so like being somewhere that’s more isolated, you know, and when you don’t have to think about anything is good. Like we used to go up to one country more often too. Like Santa Ynez, which is only like two, two and a half hour drive, you know, like Solvang, like Santa Barbara, like that area. I think it’s good to be around natural beauty, you know, and we travel a lot for like improv festivals and teaching gigs and stuff like that.
So, you know, I do like traveling for that. And I try to like explore the places that I’m in if I’ve never been there before. Like, I’m going back to Chicago next month for a show, which is great. So novelty is always good. You know, we moved to Culver City about a little over a year ago after 20 years on the east side. For me, like, I had only lived in Los Feliz, in Atwater the whole time. So just like the novelty and like I’m very.
It’s very easy for me to get set in my ways. And it’s similar to what you were saying with your job to just kind of like get locked in of like this is just what a day for me is. And we’re also paying a lot more for a much nicer place in Culver. So like, it makes me a little more motivated to work more often, which is good. I do a lot of crosswords and puzzles.
MIKE ELDER (45:11)
Oh, nice.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (45:13)
We have a pool at my place of like. So swimming is a nice way of like, I’ll only do like a five minute swim, but like, particularly. Cause it’s not heated and it’s really fucking cold. But like, like to get that like shock of going into the cold water and just like, you know. So it’s less about the exercise and more just about like shocking your body.
Yeah, in some way. But like the exercise is good too. Even. Even a five minute swim is going to be helpful.
MIKE ELDER (45:40)
Yeah. It goes back to like how I started this, like waiting for the phone to ring. Like you got to do stuff that like you can control. This is why I gravitated towards like golf. Because golf, I can’t blame anybody but myself. You know what I mean? And like every.
You have to be so present in the moment. Like this shot. Okay. Is now here. I have to focus on this. I don’t care that I just shanked the last shot. I gotta focus on this.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (46:01)
Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (46:02)
Whereas like acting and auditioning, it’s just so out of our control. I like things that I can just like lock in on.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (46:09)
Yeah. And then where you can blame yourself.
MIKE ELDER (46:12)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (46:12)
Like, it’s only. It’s only me. Yeah. I played so much golf the first couple years I was here. Oh, really? Yeah. I played with Miles Strauss and Dave Hill, Josh Funk, Jason Pardo.
Like, we went out a lot, but like two things that were happening were it’s about five hours to play 18 holes in LA.
MIKE ELDER (46:34)
Especially on LA city courses.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (46:35)
Yeah. Yes. People are so slow and there’s usually a bit of driving involved just to get there. You Know, and even though it’s like, it’s really. It’s certainly cheaper than like country club prices of like, it’s still like, when I didn’t have a lot of income coming in, like, I was burning a lot of time and money on something that, like, if I were to get better at. You’ve got to play three times a week, you know, twice a week. You’ll stay about the level that you’re at, you know.
But I was like, barely breaking a hundred.
MIKE ELDER (47:08)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (47:09)
Like, I think, like, I don’t think I’ve shot better in like 87, I think.
MIKE ELDER (47:13)
Oh, that’s great.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (47:14)
Like, I think that’s. But that was like a miracle day. Same like. Yeah, like a good round for me would normally be like a 96. 97.
MIKE ELDER (47:22)
Yeah. Thousand percent.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (47:23)
Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (47:24)
I want to. In my retirement, I kind of want to start a golf simulator business because simulators are like so hot right now. And it’s just like, it seems like such an easy thing to start.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (47:33)
The technology must be.
MIKE ELDER (47:35)
Oh, it’s great. If you watch TGL at all. No, Tiger woods is new, like golfing, like 100 Foot TV. I think after that it’s just going to blow up more.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (47:43)
Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (47:43)
But back to auditioning. You said your wife says you audition more than anybody.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (47:47)
Well, that was, that was true.
MIKE ELDER (47:48)
Okay.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (47:48)
It’s definitely.
MIKE ELDER (47:49)
I was just gonna ask, are you still auditioning a good amount right now?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (47:51)
No, no.
MIKE ELDER (47:52)
Is that mostly post strike or mostly post Covid?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (47:56)
Yeah, I mean, I think. I mean, the combination just like really business, you know, Like, I lost my insurance for the first time in like 15 years.
MIKE ELDER (48:08)
Jamie Moyer just told me that when I saw you two weeks ago. Too damn.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (48:11)
About me.
MIKE ELDER (48:12)
No, she was talking about you. She had some shit to say about Ukraine. That sucks, man.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (48:18)
But, yeah, I mean, when you. We were shut down for eight months for the. For the strike, you know, for good reasons, you know, but like, and certainly I had some residuals coming in, like booked a couple gigs that year. But like, and I was like, I was like a thousand short, you know, Like, I was so close and then, you know, they do it in quarters. So of like I had to go on Cobra for six months. And then like the quarters, like added up. We’re like, okay, then I crossed the threshold, you know, but like that, that was, you know, so I.
I was able to keep the same insurance and just pay like slightly more for it. But that was a real, like, shock to the system.
MIKE ELDER (48:55)
Yeah.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (48:55)
You know, like having just done the pits, you know, which is Again, of like that Max. Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (49:02)
People say it’s an amazing show, by the way.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (49:04)
It’s a great show. Like, super proud of having been on it. But of like, that Max, money is not fucking around. So that’s. That’s good. Of like that. That alone got me like probably like a third of the way through through, you know, for qualifying for the next time it rolls around.
MIKE ELDER (49:19)
So it’s like 8,000, I think. 9,000, 10,000. 8,000. 9,000. Okay. It’s a little higher.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (49:28)
It was a little more than that.
MIKE ELDER (49:29)
You know, isn’t it. Isn’t it 27,000 you need for.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (49:33)
Oh, what it is? Yeah, I think that’s what it is to qualify. 27. 27 grand in a year. Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (49:40)
Got a. Okay. How do you like. Okay, so while the auditions are getting sparser and sparser, what do you do to, like, counteract that? Do you have anything you do to keep the momentum up or keep your spirits up or keep.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (49:56)
I actually took class as an actor during, like the second year of the Pandemic. I started studying at BGB in the Valley, which is run by Risa Bramon Garcia. And Sidney Walsh was my teacher that I had, for the most part that I. I had a few different teachers there, but I studied with Sydney for about a year and she was so great and just. And especially, like coming off of Pandemic and like, just. And then just the self tape world, you know, I really. I have mixed feelings.
I really miss, like, going in in person and getting an adjustment from a casting director. And I love, you know, there are casting directors I’ve auditioned for many times but never met in person, you know, which is so different than those early years in LA where, you know, you really would forge relationships, you know, so that’s.
MIKE ELDER (50:51)
That’s cool that you took a class where the other kids in the class like, is that Joseph Stalin from Drunk History?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (50:57)
Most of them had no idea who I was. But occasionally, you know, more likely I would run into people from the improv world. You know, people that I had students, you know, were now like my classmates.
MIKE ELDER (51:08)
I love that, though. Like, good for you to not have, like, I know plenty of particularly IO people that’d be like, I’m not taking an acting class. I’ve acted 30 years on the stage. I would never. So good for you to, you know, not have an ego about it.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (51:22)
The learning never stops. And then, like, even if you feel like you’ve got it, you need the reps all sold. Like, just preparing a scene every week and knowing it was gonna be put on tape and then knowing you have to watch yourself and then making an adjustment after that. Like there would always be like one partner week where you’d prepare with another actor and then she wouldn’t tape those. So it wouldn’t be, it would be more about. Even if it was a scene from a movie or a TV show, it would be more like just running it, like a, like an acting exercise. But then when you would do stuff and you’d have a reader, it would just be like on camera as you would for any self tape or audition.
And so you, you’re learning technical stuff, but also you’re learning just, just basic acting stuff. Stuff also. And then I would say I did about 90% drama in that class. You, you were allowed to bring in whatever you want. But. And on the rare occasions where I would be like assigned like a comedy thing, people would be like, you’re. You’re so funny.
And be like, yeah, I know. Like, it’s too, it’s too easy. Like, you know, I, I want to like broaden my horizons.
Some other stuff. So like I did like, I did a lot of, A lot of like Paul Giamatti roles, stuff like that. Like things of like, or John C. Reilly of like actors I admire who are like in a character actor vein that I feel like I could do like that kind of stuff. So like, again, like, I don’t know if it helped me with the narrowing down, you know, what my thing is, because again, I was kind of like reaching broadly for, you know, lots of different kind of parts, but like, I got so much out of that. And then I love the format too, which is how my improv class is structured now. Like, people sign up for a month at a time.
If they want to keep going, they can. They get first crack at re enrolling or if they just want to do that month or they need a break, great. Then there’s always new energy coming in. There’s always holdover energy.
MIKE ELDER (53:12)
I like that too.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (53:13)
The class bonds. Like, there’s always people who know each other well and there’s always somebody you’re welcoming that’s coming in.
MIKE ELDER (53:19)
Yeah. So I love your answer to that question. Essentially when I say, what are you doing when you don’t have auditions? You’re manufacturing them, you’re auditioning, doing one a week or whatever. And that’s, I think that’s so smart. And I love that you’re doing that. I signed up for an acting class, starts in a couple weeks too.
And I’m just I love the idea, like when you don’t do it for a bit to your point, it’s like you’re like, can I do this? I had a couple in person auditions the other day where I didn’t get the lines until right before it. And I was like, wait, can I memorize lines? Do I know how to memorize? And it’s like once you do it. Yeah, of course you can. But like you kind of forget that if you.
It’s like an atrophy almost. If you don’t use it, you kind of forget how to do it or if you can do it.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (53:59)
And even when they say like you, you know, you don’t have to be on book for this and. Or you don’t have to be off book for this. Like it is better to be. To be off book, you know, and to be. Or at least to be just immaculately prepared if you need it for the security, great. You know, because there’s. There’s probably like always one line where I’m going to freak out of like, do I know this? Right? And like you do have it if need be.
But if like you’ve got to have it down cold anyway. So just like the skills of memorization and just knowing. Knowing the scene inside and out, you know, it reminds you not to half ass those self tapes, you know, Even if it’s kind of last minute.
MIKE ELDER (54:39)
Yeah. It gives you confidence for sure. I had I think four in person auditions in the last like two weeks, which is crazy. That’s great. And I realize how much I hate boards. I hate the board. They’re all commercial auditions.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (54:50)
Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (54:50)
Yeah. And when they put the words on the board, I hate that so much.
I gotta figure out. I gotta figure out how to conquer that.
Cause I memorize it, right? And then they’re like, play to the board.
I’m like, I memorized. I don’t need it. And then I find myself like reading it, but I don’t need to read it.
And I always. That always messes me up.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (55:04)
Yeah.
MIKE ELDER (55:04)
I don’t know. We’re almost to an hour. The last question I have is, who took a chance on you?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (55:11)
Who took a chance on me?
MIKE ELDER (55:13)
Take a chance, take a chance on me.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (55:14)
You just had like a nice music challenge your mind. I’m the first in line honey, I’m still free. Take a chance on me. Yeah. You have to pay Abbott for that now.
MIKE ELDER (55:26)
I didn’t know you were a singer too.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (55:31)
I mean the. She’s a complicated person, but the first person that comes to mind is Sharna Halpern. You know, of, like, there’s a lot of people who, you know, who can’t stand her.
For good reason, probably. Of, like. But I mean, that really was the first person that I thought of, like, who was my first improv teacher in Chicago. And, like, put me on a team, like, three weeks into level one, like, and this was a time where Chicago, like, the scene was so small that, like, they needed warm bodies on stage, like, right away. But again, just, like, to get those reps in early and to have, you know, that was the beauty of Chicago that I got so much stage time that I was not ready for. But you learn quickly. And you.
You know, I say to my students of, like, these lessons are great in the classroom. It’s all theoretical, but you really are only gonna learn by making horrific mistakes in front of paying audiences. They need to be paying audiences, not your friends, and they need to be complete strangers. And you need to fuck up royally. But then you’ll never do that thing again of, like, that’ll be locked in. You know, people make a lot of the same mistakes in class, but, like, in front of a crowd, like, you will remember those. Those moments.
So, like, I just had so many. So many times in. In Chicago. And then Derek Waters, since you mentioned him, you know, was really like somebody I knew from the improv world casually. Like, we. We. We weren’t close friends, but of, like, we certainly, like, had had a friendly vibe and that he thought of me for that show, you know, Know, like, an offer is always incredible to get.
Like, there was no audition. Like, how would you even audition people to do that? Like, he just wanted people in that he could trust and that were versatile. And so, like, that certainly was like, my longest running on camera gig. And that was entirely due to Derek just reaching out to people that he knew and trusted.
MIKE ELDER (57:32)
Yeah, that’s the benefit of being a teacher like, that, I think, because people just trust you. Like Will Hines, I interviewed him again, like, a year ago, and he was like, most of the TV work I get is through old students. Like, they’re now writers and are like, will, it’s great.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (57:43)
Absolutely.
MIKE ELDER (57:44)
Yeah. So that’s really cool.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (57:45)
Yeah. I mean, the amount of things that I’ve gotten just completely cold through, like sending off. Sending off a tape. Like, it does happen occasionally, but of like, there’s usually some sort. It’s relationships. Whether it’s the director, the casting director, or a writer on the show or an actor on the show. Like, it’s almost always been some sort of existing relationship.
MIKE ELDER (58:05)
Yeah. Have you ever got anything by standing on a street corner and handing out headshots between cars?
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (58:09)
There’s only one way to.
MIKE ELDER (58:16)
I’m gonna have a lot of time on my. It’s here very soon.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (58:19)
Do that half bit.
MIKE ELDER (58:21)
I love half bits. That was my nickname in college. Craig. This was delightful. It was so good to see you again.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (58:26)
So fun. This flew by.
MIKE ELDER (58:27)
It really did. And truthfully, I wasn’t joking. When I looked up and saw 25 minutes, I was like, these are my favorite convos. I haven’t seen you in decades, but.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (58:36)
It’s like decades, decade.
MIKE ELDER (58:38)
I say decade, but it’s great, man. You have to tail slate at the end here.
CRAIG CACKOWSKI (58:45)
Craig Cackowski, 6ft tall. You think I could round it up? Right? But I want to be honest.
